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Post by fenderplucker on Feb 23, 2009 14:52:56 GMT
Hi,
again in order too get the ball rolling I offer the following (and I am sure that Charlie and others will correct and add more):
1. 1960 - 1961 Meazzi Echomatic 1 (not sure if 5 or 6 head, model F. G or J??) Identified by characteristic pattern of echoes. First used on Record: Apache in June 1960; Last used on record: Blue Star in Feb 1961?
Was variable speed ever used as claimed a while ago in Shadsfax Vol 24? (eg the echoes on Gee Whiz It's You recorded on the Cliff Richard show fit the Echomatic 1 spacing, but only if the speed is reduced by about 20%).
2. 1961 - 1964 Meazzi Echomatic 2 Identified by characteristic pattern of echoes. First used on record: Find Me a Golden Street in Jan 1961?; Last used on record: The Miracle in July 1964?
3. 1964 - 1975? Binson Echorec (models?) First used on record: Zambesi in Feb 1964?? Last used on record:??
4. 1975 - 1979 Meastro Echoplex (possibly overlapping with Binson?) Cited in article in Sept 1977 Guitar Player interviewing Hank.
5. 1978 - 19?? Roland 210 Recordings:?? Seen on Stage?
6. 1978? Roland 301 Recordings?? Seen at 1978 London Palladium
7. 19??- 1997 Roland 555 Recordings?? seen on stage
8. 1997 - 2000? Alesis Q2 EFTP Recordings:? Live Shows:
9. 2000 - Alesis Q20 EFTP Recordings: Live Shows: The Final Tour etc
10 2008 - TVS3 Royal Variety Performance Guitar man (selected tracks)
Regards,
Paul.
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jay
Member
Posts: 233
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Post by jay on Feb 23, 2009 18:57:32 GMT
Didn't know what one was until I read fenderplucker's thread re echo units.
Found the YT demos and noted the switching in and out of the unit whilst Wonderful Land was being played. Also listened to all three units as presented on YT. Couldn't hear much difference in sound between 1,2 and 3?
To my ears I was still impressed with the sound without the unit coming into play. I would of course like to hear the units live. The MP3s on the website are certainly impressive and if HBM employs the guitarist as his rhythm man then he's obviously very good.
What next...a TVS4?
Can anyone tell me a bit more about these units? The TVS3 is very expensive and there is a big difference between the price of the first and third units. Does anyone have one of these?
Roland, Alesis+EFTP, TVS3......is there much difference in HBM's sound as he moves along the processing path?
Jay
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Post by alanmckillop on Feb 23, 2009 22:04:40 GMT
This will prove a little more difficult for me, although there are some good pics about, I don't know what model is what, but Paul's list looks not far off.
Meazzi Binson Echorec and Baby Binson Meastro Echoplex Roland 201, 301 SRE555 (rack 501) Alesis Q2/Q20 TVS
I'll let others help Paul out with the dates and other info.
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Post by Charlie Hall on Feb 24, 2009 4:16:44 GMT
I am 99% sure the Echomatic 1 (we have to call it that as we don't really know what it was) had 5 playback heads. For some reason the middle head was not usually heard. It could have been an F or something similar to it, I don't think it was a G and it definitely wasn't a J (the J had 6 playback heads). It had variable speed. It seemed that Hank only used two different speeds. Usually the slow speed was used, and the faster speed was used for Quatermassters Stores. The faster speed was also used on a Cliff number but I can't remember the title. The speed ratio is approximately 1.4:1. Dick Denney told me that there was never a circuit diagram for this unit. He also told me that the later units were single speed (because the variable speed of the earlier unit was troublesome), maybe the ones he saw were. I wouldn't argue about the last recording it was used on as I don't know the recording dates, but it seemed that Frightened City was the last hit single it was used on.
The Baby Binson was used as a spare on stage, I believe as far back as when the Echomatic 1 was in use.
Alan Jackson told me that his Echomatic 2 has variable speed. It operates from the same control as the head levels. The fastest speed has the highest head levels. It seems that Hank's Echomatic 2 units did not have variable speed. He had at least 2 different ones, going by the slight variations in the delay times.
I didn't do any research with the Echorec 2 as far as Shadows recordings were concerned, but I did have one that was given to me by Alan Jackson which I reconditioned with a new drum. There are 4 presets inside that alter the 4 head levels when used in the Swell mode. The factory settings are head 1 0dB, head 2 -2dB, head 3 -4dB, head 4 -6dB. I reset them to give similar head levels to the Echomatic 2 and it sounded a lot closer, but still like a Binson voice, so I suspect that Hanks presets were adjusted in a similar way. It sounded best with the echo tone control turned down quite a way. In the Swell mode, the feedback is set according to the 12 position switch. Position 4 is feedback from the 4th head.
In a magazine interview (sorry I don't remember which) around the 70's or 80's, Hank said he was using an MXR digital delay (I think he said it was MXR). This might have been before he discovered the Roland units.
Hank told me he used a Binson EC3 for one of the 70's recordings, it was either Argentina or Cavatina. The EC3 has very fast 33ms spacings between each head and has independent feedback switches for each head.
On The Snowman, the same echo unit was used 3 times at 3 different speeds, one panned centre, one panned left, and one panned right. I was told (not by Hank) that this was a Roland digital echo. The spacings seemed very similar to the RE301.
Hank said in a magazine interview (Guitarist?) that he thought the 501 delay sounded stupid. I believe that the pair of 301s were used up until 1995, at least for live shows.
Hank was using the Q20 by late 1999, for the Cliff Millenium shows at Birmingham UK. Previously I had forgotten exactly when it was, but I remember a discussion at the rehearsal at Elstree studios with Lionall about the Q20 self powering when the mains power was applied and he thought there was something wrong with them!
Regards, Charlie
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2009 4:39:14 GMT
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Post by fenderplucker on Feb 25, 2009 7:24:25 GMT
Hi Charlie,
Thanks for that info, it fills in a number of gaps! I have seen a few different photos of the drum Meazzi's: one is characterised by a large black knob in the centre of the front panel with 6 switchable positions and so it is clearly an Echomatic 1. Another has 3 inputs on the lower left side and no 6-position control, but a variable "effect" control (amongst the others) and so is presumably the Echomatic 2. However, the photo in Roberto's book of an Echomatic 1 doesn't have the large black 6-way Reverberation" knob (though that control is in the same centre location in the pic), and I have seen reference to the varispeed control being adjusted with a "large black knob".
I have also seeen photos of a Vox variant (presumably the Echomatic 2 since the 6-way reverberation control is not there, but the effects one is) and another of a similar unit but with some additional controls located in the mesh screen above the rest of the controls. Hank said that he didn't recognise either of these, but did the one of the Echomatic 1. I don't know how to include photos so it might sound a bit confusing, nevertheless can you shed any further light on the appearances of the different units and possibly post a pic of each?
Paul.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2009 7:50:54 GMT
HI ALLjust a small snippet.frightened-city was released in 1961 with back-home on the b side,sorry the year only...
cheers barry..
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Post by Charlie Hall on Feb 25, 2009 10:40:53 GMT
Hi Paul,
To be honest I don't know which model is which from seeing them in pics alone, but I do know that Alan Jackson's Echomatic 2 is a Vox badged one, and according to what he tells me, the casing was different on the Meazzi badged ones, and better quality. Since his Vox has variable speed it might be that the Meazzi versions were not but I really am speculating here. I don't know whether Hank's Echomatic 2's were Vox or Meazzi badged. Alan is a member here but doesn't visit often. He is a mine of information about these units so I hope he sees this thread.
I don't exactly know how to post pics either, but there is a thread in the Tips and Tricks section about how to do it. You would have to upload them to a site like Photobucket and then link to them from a message on this site.
Hi Barry,
Thanks for confirming Back Home as the B side of Frightened City. I thought it was, but wasn't sure from memory alone. I think the Echomatic 1 was used on Back Home so that makes sense as well. 1961 was the year of the first Shadows album and both the Echomatic 1 and Echomatic 2 are used on it, so that more or less pinpoints the year that the Echomatic 1 went out of service.
Regards, Charlie
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Post by fenderplucker on Feb 25, 2009 14:15:52 GMT
Hi Charlie, Hope this works. Here's some photos and my guess as to the type of unit: Vox (Meazzi) Echomatic 2 (modified): Meazzi Echomatic 1: Vox (Meazzi) Echomatic 1: Echomatic 2: . Regards, paul
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Post by Charlie Hall on Feb 25, 2009 19:41:44 GMT
Hi Paul, As far as I can tell I think you are right about the Echomatic 2. I think the one with the extra controls in the mesh is the one belonging to Alan Jackson. I don't think those extra controls are stock from the factory. Not sure about the other ones, they could be the Echomatic 1. I think the model J also had a 6 position switch, not so sure about the F and G. Regards, Charlie
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2009 2:41:35 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2009 3:14:33 GMT
Didn't know what one was until I read fenderplucker's thread re echo units. Found the YT demos and noted the switching in and out of the unit whilst Wonderful Land was being played. Also listened to all three units as presented on YT. Couldn't hear much difference in sound between 1,2 and 3? To my ears I was still impressed with the sound without the unit coming into play. I would of course like to hear the units live. The MP3s on the website are certainly impressive and if HBM employs the guitarist as his rhythm man then he's obviously very good. What next...a TVS4? Can anyone tell me a bit more about these units? The TVS3 is very expensive and there is a big difference between the price of the first and third units. Does anyone have one of these? Roland, Alesis+EFTP, TVS3......is there much difference in HBM's sound as he moves along the processing path? Jay HI JAY , well I can tell you this about the ''TVS's'' ,But I don't own one as the cost is too high for me & I am happy with my Q2 & m/stomp with charlies ''efpt'' ,and to add to that If you gave me hank's original 1961-1964 equippment i would still not be able to produce the tunes as hank did as my playing ability is just not good-enough... BUT saying that aside I have been fortunate enough to personally meet with the designer& ''builder of the ''TVS'' ''PAUL'' of perth-australia,& to hear tunes played with a strat ,AC15,& TVS3 with no other added effect's BY paul himself in his living room & I must say the sound is so authentic to ''that-sound'' as you can get.. THe difference in the tvs1 etc is the tvs 1 ,is a unit replicating the ''meazzi'' dry sound that you can use in front of any digital echo-unit such as the zoom's, the m/stomp's q's and so on.. perhap's paul could describe the TVS2 as I am not 100% sure of it's capability but it is still used with the before mentioned didgi-units.. AND of course the ''TVS3'' does it all using ''analog-delay-chip's''& whats more It is fully programable & has all the patches needed at the press of a button,THE cost is justafiable if as i did see the cost of component's & the quality of build,It is completly ''hand'' built I by 1 in paul,s workshop in'' western-australia'',''down-under'' SO jay it's horses for courses & a matter of how much you are willing to spend on ''the-sound-you-want-to-hear'' coming from your speaker's,AS for ''ME'' after 3 years of my renewed hobbie I have found that-sound-''I''-want to hear. in-the ''QUADRAVERB-with as I call them ''charlie's ''magic'' 79-09 patch-set... cheers .........barry..
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Post by didier on Feb 26, 2009 8:40:24 GMT
Hank Marvin at the Paris Olympia in 1962 : You can see the Meazzi Echomatic 1, right of his amp. Didier. P.S. Photo by Jean-Louis Rancurel
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Post by alanmckillop on Feb 27, 2009 17:32:55 GMT
I've been busy converting some screen images to jpegs for posting later so that you can follow the development and use of amps by The Shads. I've also tried to include shots where you can see (although not too clearly I'm afraid) the echo units and I was most surprised to see two units (with cables) in some of the clips. I'm going to put this down to Hank having a spare, but I know of a couple of shows where his echo broke down (the Palladium being one venue) after the date of these particular TV shows, so I'm curious as to why he'd have two for some shows and not others. I am aware that perhaps the units failed, but you'd think if unreliability was an issue, he'd always have two.
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jay
Member
Posts: 233
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Post by jay on Feb 27, 2009 21:17:37 GMT
Hi Barry,
Thanks for the input. Well if these are handbuilt by the man himself then I can see why he's knocking them out at said price. And yes I agree with you. You may have all the authentic top end gear at your disposal but until someone picks up the guitar and starts playing you cannot hear a thing! It's always a player/gear combo that produces the sound. But the guy in the video plays really well.
I play classical guitar also and I recently came across a video demo of this guy who is a professor of guitar some 30 years. He had in his lap two very high end guitars ($30k each at least). He played the same piece on both guitars allegedly to demonstrate their respective qualities and I'll be blowed but he not only made the music sound ordinary but the guitars too! To my ears they both sounded the same. The common denominator was the guy playing. Now unless you are made of money or preferably can bring out the sound of the guitar then you really are wasting your money in my opinion.
Think I'll kick off with my Classic 50s strat/Magicstomp and Charlies patches. I'm being sensible for once!
Cheers, Jay.
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Post by shindigdk on Feb 28, 2009 10:50:02 GMT
"Hank said in a magazine interview (Guitarist?) that he thought the 501 delay sounded stupid. I believe that the pair of 301s were used up until 1995, at least for live shows." ---------- I happen to have a 501 delay, and I think it is a really great piece of equipment. It is easy to find good and usable echoes, the sound is great, and I would have been immensely happy to have had this unit back in the sixties. Living in our time for gigs I have a Yamaha MagicStomp (via send-return from my Goss GT8) with Charlie's patches. Can anyone explain to me, why 301 is so popular and 501 consideres trash? I think Shadows echoes are so easily obtainable with the 501! Best regards Shindig
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Post by Charlie Hall on Feb 28, 2009 13:50:13 GMT
If I remember rightly the 501 has 3 fairly evenly spaced heads (similar perhaps to the 201) and a 4th sound on sound head. I think it is this 4th head that Hank may have been frustrated with as it does not have the facility to feedback to the record head as the other 3 do. I know that Hank liked the 301 because it reminded him of the sound of the first Meazzi. The 4th sound on sound head was not useful to him because it had a long delay because of its position. The 3 main heads are fairly evenly spaced except for the 3rd head which is much longer, more than double the distance between the 1st and 2nd heads. Regards, Charlie
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2009 11:50:40 GMT
I used to have a Vox/Meazzi Echomatic 1. The unusual tthing was that the Guitar input plugs were not "British" 1/4 inch jack plugs .They were ,what I believe were , called Continental "Geloso" plugs--(Similar to "Din "plugs.
Ian
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Post by Charlie Hall on Apr 5, 2009 15:47:02 GMT
Hi Ian, I don't remember anyone else saying they had one of these. I bet many people are interested to know more about how it sounded. Regards, Charlie
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Post by gorgeousgeorge on Apr 28, 2009 14:58:51 GMT
speaking of echo units my luthier is selling these units,the top 2 for 100€. Can anyone give me more info on whether they're worth it?He says the echo unit has a sort of disk rather than a tape.
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Post by Charlie Hall on Apr 28, 2009 18:04:37 GMT
The lower one of the top 2 units is a Binson Echorec. They can be worth a lot more if working well. If parts are needed they are hard to find and expensive if found. That particular unit is not so good for Shadows sounds. There is a model with 6 knobs instead of 4, the one with 6 knobs is better. The top unit seems to be a mixer unit and is probably of little value unless a collector is wanting one. Regards, Charlie
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Post by peterbower on May 15, 2009 16:26:24 GMT
I saw the Shads live at the Oldfield Tavern Greenford in the early 60's and Hank was using a Baby Binson which was sat on a chair next to the amp.
We all came away from that gig rather disappointed because they sounded nothing like their records, well we were just teenagers hoping to hear our heroes play like the records. Peter
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Post by Charlie Hall on May 15, 2009 19:22:27 GMT
Hi Peter, I believe that Baby Binson was used mainly as a spare by Hank. Must have been one occasion when a Meazzi wasn't available in working order. Regards, Charlie
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Post by Len on Jun 7, 2009 12:43:35 GMT
Hi to All
Paul lists the Maestro Echoplex in his post. Does anyone know for how long Hank Marvin used the Maestro Echoplex and which model. I note that the Penumbra site <http://www.penumbra.co.nz/allthegear.html#drums> doesn’t document Hank’s use of an Echoplex.
In an interview with Guitar Player Magazine in September 1977 (the same one referred to by Paul), Hank said he “had it now for about three years” but at that stage was considering switching back to a Binson metal disc type because the tapes were constantly wearing out on the Echoplex. Obviously, he stopped using them at some stage beyond that point. Does anyone also know whether Hank recoded any specific tracks using the Echoplex?
Charlie queried which magazine spoke of an MXR digital delay when he wrote, “In a magazine interview (sorry I don't remember which) around the 70's or 80's, Hank said he was using an MXR digital delay (I think he said it was MXR). This might have been before he discovered the Roland units.” In the same interview, Hank said that he used an MXR phaser. Are you sure Charlie that Hank said it was a digital delay or could he have been referring to the phaser? I mean no offence to either your memory or Hank’s. I’m just wondering whether might be some confusion there somewhere. He may well have used the MXR digital delay too of course.
Incidentally, Hank also says in the same article that “I’ve had little spasms of using the Fender Deluxe Reverb.” I never realised that Hank used Fender amps beyond the very earliest days when he may have used a Fender Tweed amp (I’m sure I read that somewhere).
Regards Len
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Post by Charlie Hall on Jun 7, 2009 16:42:23 GMT
Hi Len, I am fairly sure that Hank referred to a rack unit that he was using at the time for echo but I am not totally sure that it was an MXR. I do not remember when I read the article though. If it was a digital unit, I think it was probably during the early 80s. Regards, Charlie
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Post by Tone on Jun 7, 2009 20:43:32 GMT
Hi
Question from a non techie:
The labelled drawing of the Meazzi Echomatic 1 in Paul's post #8 shows a "reverb control." I believe other tape echo units had a similar control. Is this a true reverb (and, if so, how could they achieve it from an echo machine) or is it another name fror very fast repeats merging together? Hang on, though.....isn't that what reverb actually is?
Please excuse my ignorance: answers in words of one syllable or less will be appreciated!
Cheers.
Tony
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Post by fenderplucker on Jun 8, 2009 2:05:09 GMT
Hu Tony,
The "Reverberation" control o the Echomatic 1 (labelled "Effects" on most units) was a 6 position switch that brought in different numbers and combinations of heads. There was no separate "reverberation" as such, just the multiple repeats merging together. The later tape units also had a push button labelled "reverb" and this just switched the feedback on giving a more reverb type of sound.
Paul.
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Post by Tone on Jun 8, 2009 10:58:24 GMT
Thanks for that, Paul. What you've said iswhat I'd vaguely suspected so perhaps I'm not such an ignoramus after all Cheers. Tony
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Post by peterbower on Aug 17, 2009 15:26:00 GMT
Hi Charlie
Hank used a Roland RE-3 digital rack unit several times in the 80's, a good example of that echo in use is 'Walking in the air', or the 'Snowman' whichever you want to call it.
I was told that he liked it and there are other tracks where he used it but i have no idea which ones.
Regards Peter
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Post by Charlie Hall on Aug 17, 2009 16:03:09 GMT
Hi Peter, I remember you telling me that, what is interesting is that the echo was used 3 times on that track, all set at slightly different speeds, one on the left, one in the middle, and one on the right, relative to the stereo image. I found this by taking samples of the echoes on the left and right channels separately. Regards, Charlie
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