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Post by Charlie Hall on Jan 13, 2010 22:21:56 GMT
Hi Clive, Fine, I'll check it out when I receive it. Regards, Charlie
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Post by erikMAMS on Jan 13, 2010 22:57:33 GMT
No offence, but somethings wrong here - an added load of 2200pf should definitely make a noticeably difference!?
Erik
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Post by Charlie Hall on Jan 14, 2010 1:08:29 GMT
Hi Erik, I could see the difference with 1200pf but it wasn't so easy to hear. I am also surprised that 2200pf wasn't more than enough. I suspect that Clive is looking for a more distinct tonal change when he is perhaps missing the point of what this is about, to tune his bridge pickup rather than make it sound completely different. Another reason could be that his tone pot is not going to true zero at zero setting although I think that is quite unlikely. But we will perhaps understand more when Clive produces a new test file. Regards, Charlie
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Post by tca on Jan 14, 2010 9:33:17 GMT
Charlie, further mp3 sent pm. Rgds - Clive
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Post by Charlie Hall on Jan 14, 2010 13:29:28 GMT
Hi Clive, I have received the file. I have emailed you about it. Regards, Charlie
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Post by clivea on Jan 20, 2010 18:46:32 GMT
Just to update you guys in to where I've got with this........
I fitted the 2200pf capacitor and found that there was no difference, so I fitted the 1200pf together with the 2200pf (3400pf) and found that the change of depth of tone was really definate. Charlie has tested my mp3 sample and, as I expected, has suggested that the tone was too deep. On Charlie's recommendation (and when I feel like taking the guitar apart ... again ... again ... again and yet again ..... and getting the soldering iron out... yet again!) I will fit just the 2200pf and see (or hear) what happens.
I will keep you all posted, because as my friend Tony P has said, many members have the similar problem of having thin/too bright high 'E's.
Rgds - Clive
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Post by pacman on Jan 20, 2010 20:57:13 GMT
Hi Guys. Having read all the posts on members trying to get rid of that treble myself included why not fit a graphic equalizer in between your guitar and the amp I see they range from a few pounds upwards starting with a simple pedal ,or would it just act like the controls on the amp.I must say it does affect my playing as I tend to strike the two top strings not quite so hard so as to get a warmer note.I've tried playing with the controls on my amp but only end up with a more bassy sound. Regards David ;D
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Post by Charlie Hall on Jan 20, 2010 23:01:35 GMT
I don't believe a graphic does the same thing as capacitance on the pickups. The capacitance not only alters the amount of highs but also shifts the frequency of the pickup's resonant peak. That isn't easy to do with EQ. It would be possible to get close with a sophisticated parametric EQ if you understand how they work. Regards, Charlie
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2010 23:12:47 GMT
I've just deleted a post, when I looked at it back it read all wrong. Sorry about that. Tony
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Post by pacman on Jan 20, 2010 23:22:26 GMT
Hi Tony No problems it happens to all of us Regards David ;D ;D
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Post by erikMAMS on Jan 20, 2010 23:23:13 GMT
Hi Clive There's a way to avoid to take the guitar a parts more than necessary. Next time you get it apart solder two short wires where you have the cap connected - the wires just need to be long enough to run outside the guitar, aprox. 10-15cm. The cap now goes between the free ends of the wires. With the scratchplate back on and the guitar functioning you can now try out different cap values and the change in effect. If you want to take it a bit further you can wire in a rotary switch with a selection of caps, which makes it fast and easy to compare different cap values. You can also include a toggle switch to take the circuit in/out (see pics). The later is a very usefull option for A/B testing on the fly with/without a cap added - which also helps you to keep a sound reference. See pic (it's a little blured, but you'll get the idea). Last advise from personal experience. Take your time when listening to the effect of different capacitive loads. IME we often tend to favor the sound we are used to - and changes which at first impression may seem subtle or not much improvement can - when your ears get used to it - be just what you are looking for. After playing a while with different values, take a break - one hour or more. When you come back start with the modification ON (prefered cap value in the circuit). Play it for 5-10 minutes, before you switch out the cap and listen to the "old" sound. How does it sound in comparison? At this point you will probably be surprised - but more importantly be able to get a better "picture" of any the sound changes. Erik Attachments:
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Post by pacman on Jan 20, 2010 23:55:36 GMT
Thanks Charlie Idid'nt think it would be that easy as it would have been suggested before.I suppose at the end of the day it all boils down to some good p'ups and ,or a valve amp. I do however have a Black Finger compressor its a valve unit but I have had no success with it it did'nt have a manual I looked on the net but what I read did'nt make much sense I might start a new thread and see what happens. Kind Regards David
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2010 0:38:26 GMT
HI CLIVE ,,,,,where exactly are you fitting the cap? .. I t needs to go from the active lead of the pickup to ground !!!!! whether it be at the p/up itself or from the 5 way switch it does not seem to matter much ,,I actully add my cap's from the total signal prior to the vol-pot but I have mine swichable!! so as you can have it or [them] in my case I use 4x differing values ie 2x centre-off -mini toggle's ,that you can have the tone-cut or not have-it!!!!!! you can leave the std-tone pot&cap in circuit as well but leave it at full treble & use the switching for the effect[I do not have the tone pot in circuit but have done & that's ok as well but the tone pot& cap does make a slight difference!!!no big-deal ,but it does alter slightly what cap value you use [the additional cap we are fitting Imean!!! CLIVE I have found the best values are between .0018 uf & .0047 uf ''green-caps'' in nano-farad that is 1.8nf-4.7nf.. SO in pico-farads that's 1,800 pf 3,300pf 3,900pf 4,700pf..[pico-farads] OR 1.8nf 2.2nf 3.3nf 3.9nf 4.7nf...[nano-farads'] OR theEIA-CODE. 182 222 332 392 472 [eia-code] mostly these day's the caps are marked in the nano-farrad ,ie[nf]& or just N sometimes.. ANY way clive they are cheap to buy so get a range from 102-472 ..or higher ,a few of each will only cost very little & have a play-around with differing values ,,... If you don't want to add switches [spoiling the original appearance remove the tone-pot or 1 of them & fit a 4-or-more up to 12 position rotary switch 6 pos would be plenty & fit a couple larger-caps at 5&6 pos,say a 103nf [.01uf] & a 223 [.022uf] for a more mellow setting ,you can get a splined shaft rotary to accept your fender knob [quite cheaply 3-4 oz dollars ] the caps should only be about 25cents ea here in OZ,,,, Greencaps are fine all this orange drop etc etc is only ''HYPE'' most all guitars etc use''green-caps'' ie polyester or mylar & they do the job & are very cheap I have hundreds of these here as well as many other types the 100volt-rating-type-green-caps are the ''GO-MATE''.. BEST OF LUCK & DO PERSIVERE with it you will get the sound you ''WANT'' to hear!!! CHEERS .........barry.. CLIVE ,please take my& erik's advise & use a switching devise for instant comparison !!! the difference in the sound is reasonably ''suttle'' but it's the better way to be able to determine it!! & you need to be able to turn-it off when not needed!! GOOD LUCK ...........barry..PS HI ALL can some-one please show me how they quote a part of a previous message in stead of the whole message as I have done but needed only a part of,,, CHEERS ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,barry..
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Post by Charlie Hall on Jan 21, 2010 1:38:24 GMT
Hi Barry, Clive does have an instant comarison by turning the tone control up or down. The tone control is in series with the low value cap in the bridge position. Regards, Charlie
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Post by clivea on Jan 21, 2010 18:04:56 GMT
Thanks everyone for your continued help and advice.
Barry/Erik, sorry guys but too technical for me - only just recently used soldering iron for the first time!!! But thanks anyway.
The thing is with the capacitors, that I've learned so far, is that when the bridge control is adjusted, the lower sounds are affected as well as the high's. I would like the lower sounds to be unaffected as they sound ok - but I'm after the higher notes (E string) to be more soft and mellow.
Let's see what happens with just the 2200pf fitted then I'll let you all know.
Is there any way that I can record a sample of sound and include it within this thread?
I forgot to say that, today, I've had minor surgery on my left elbow (damned arthritis!), therefore may be a few days before I report back.
Rgds - Clive
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Post by erikMAMS on Jan 22, 2010 10:24:25 GMT
Hi Clive Hope you are doing OK after the surgery. Now that you've learned to solder, there's really nothing more to it As you may have noticed the reports on your findings seems a little strange to some of us, but with a little patience you'll get there - and I'm sure Charlie and other, myself included, will be happy to help the best we can. Keep us posted. Erik
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Post by clivea on Jan 23, 2010 15:36:55 GMT
Hi Erik,
I appreciate your help. Do you have a capacitor fitted on your guitar/s to warm up the high 'E's?.
Rgds - Clive
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2010 22:32:11 GMT
HI CHARLIE & ALL ,, sorry charlie have i missed something on the tone control thing ? you say the cap on the bridge p/up is in series with tone-pot ?? meaning original cap removed??? cheers-------barry..
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Post by Charlie Hall on Jan 24, 2010 6:17:42 GMT
Hi Barry, Actually the new cap becomes in series with the pot and then the original tone capacitor as well, when the bridge pickup alone is selected. The guitar remain stock in the other 4 switch positions. The additional cap makes it equivalent to putting both caps in series. Any components in a series chain can be in series with the same result. Regards, Charlie
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Post by tca on Jan 28, 2010 14:43:59 GMT
Hi Folks,
I've now removed the 1200pf capacitor leaving the 2200pf fixed and sent Charlie sample sound files.
It will be interesting to hear his comments.
Rgds - Clive
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2010 20:09:04 GMT
Hi Clive, I have today put 57/62 Fender pickups on my Classic 50. With the MS and my little line 6 and there is a significant taming down of the bright sometimes brittle sound which you describe. The change was quite significant actually, I'm very impressed with them. I don't know why this should be but Dave Robbo kindly lent me his Mex and it sounds the same so it must be the pickups. All the other Strats I've tried here over the last couple of years or so have sounded bright with the MS. Tony
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Post by clivea on Jan 29, 2010 7:04:32 GMT
Hi Tony,
That's interesting, because the deeper that I get into this, the more convinced I am that, besides the quality of guitar we are using, it is the type of pickups we have to use to get a particular quality of sound. I guess that this is why Hank has several guitar changes when on stage? As you know, I replaced the standard Classic Strat pickups with John Collins' Vintage pickups on my Classic Series 50, which are fantastic for 50's type vintage Shads. But I feel that if a sound more like shall we say Pete Korving is wanted (which I would love to have!), then maybe a different make of pickups are needed to give a more mellow sound, particularly on the high B's and E's. What do you think? What pickups did you have on your Classic 50 before you put the 57/62's on? I thought you had these on when we met at your place, I'm probably wrong. Is Dave Robbo using a Classic Series 50 with 57/62's on his 'Backtrax Lead 8 CD?. Do you know what amp and processor he's using?
Rgds - Clive
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2010 9:46:12 GMT
Hi Clive, I have sent you a pm. Tony
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Post by Charlie Hall on Jan 29, 2010 14:13:41 GMT
Hi Clive, I think it should be possible to get close to what you want with the pickups you have, with careful settings and probably good recording techniques. I'd like to help you to sort out your guitar wiring first. Incidentally if and when you send any sound files to me, please don't bother with the tone control setting on 5, with it at 10 or zero is all I need. Regards, Charlie
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Post by clivea on Feb 2, 2010 12:29:41 GMT
Hi folks,
I've now removed the 1200pf capacitor, leaving the 2200pf in situ. and recorded a sample with settings at 0 and 10 and sent it to Charlie who is now quite happy with the tone control. Would suggest you who need not so bright high 'E's to try this simple excercise for the sake of around 15p (Maplins) and let us know what you think.
Rgds - Clive
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2010 12:43:31 GMT
HI CLIVE ,,,,GLAD to see you get success with your tone [much cheaper than swapping pick-ups] I have done this for a good while dicovering really by accident at first after charlies mention of 68pf on jap p/up's but with fat-fifties or the very good-''JC-VINTAGE''-set's I found it needed .0022 at least to tame the bright top E's & also bring-up-the mid's!!!!!overall!!!!!.... A major help to gain that vintage sound !!!!! cheers ALL ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,barry..
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Post by clivea on Feb 2, 2010 17:33:16 GMT
Thanks Barry,
Can I throw in a further question here particularly to you experienced guys? We are all talking about a 'vintage' sound - what if more of a say 80's sound was wanted (Pete Korving sound for example), what guitar, p/ups and gear would then be required.
Rgds - Clive
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Post by erikMAMS on Feb 4, 2010 11:27:36 GMT
Just curious. Did you eventually find a mistake in the guitar/cap wiring etc. - explaning the odd reports on the percieved tone changes?
Erik
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Post by clivea on Feb 4, 2010 13:15:19 GMT
Hi Erik,
I sent Charlie a sound sample mp3 with an image, he confirmed that the wiring was correct, so don't really know why I got different tone changes. Charlie did mention that because the wire was long on the capacitor it was posible for it to 'lay' on it's surroundings, maybe this had some bearing on it?
Rgds - Clive
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2010 13:38:32 GMT
HI CLIVE ,,, Im am a great fan of ''PETER-KORVING'' & HIS SOUND .. ,But peter's sound is more to do with his ability to adapt the tone-echo-REVERB etc I feel his guitar is no different to other's ,& he is a master-player & a ''master-of-sound'' as I have said before [listen to his ''atlantis'' posted on this site a good-while ago ,along with paul rossiter's ''atlantis'' as well!! the best two versions I have heard to-date!! .. As to his guitar spec's & maybe if he see's this message he may respond?? BUT CLIVE any good vintage sounding guitar can sound quite different depending on the amp-setting's ,various-pedal's P/up selection's etc etc but I feel you are on the right track getting the ''GUITAR-SOUNDING-GOOD-PRIOR-TO-ANY-other effect's I feel the sound has to start at the guitar first!!!!& that's what you are doing & goodonya for perservering with that beginning of ''THE-CHAIN''......... CHEERS ALL....................barry..
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