Warm High E Notes?

[tca]

Here's a question for you guys 'in the know'.

There have been many threads on the site re 'thin' sounding high 'e' notes.

What amp would you recommend (limited budget of say £400), which would guarantee giving a very warm sound especially on the high E notes (not bright and thin), and not particularly needing the many effects a lot of amps offer.

I would guess that a thin sound is needed for Hank's early numbers but a much warmer sound for later tunes. Rgds - Clive

[Charlie Hall]

Hi Clive,
Vox amps that have a cut control are best for warming up high notes.
Hank's high notes have always had a warm sound in varying degrees of course, I think the main difference beteen the old and newer sounds is the amount of bass.
My recent recording of Mustang also demonstrated that warmer sounding high notes could be got by using a longer guitar cable.
Regards,
Charlie

[clivea]

Thanks Charlie. What exactly is a 'cut control', what does it do and which Vox model would you recommend against budget? Rgds - Clive

[Charlie Hall]

Hi Clive,
Most of the higher end Vox amps have a cut control. It is connected across the driver output before the signal goes to the output valves. It reduces the highs in a different way to a treble control, basically controlling higher frequencies.
Actually, a simple mod added to your guitar could do something similar on the bridge pickup, which is where it would be most useful, fortunately.
Regards,
Charlie

[clivea]

Hi Charlie, what would the simple mod entail doing? Rgds - Clive

[Charlie Hall]

Hi Clive,
Adding a tone control function for the bridge pickup.
Simply done by locating the unused terminal on the switch and the next terminal along (that connects to the lower tone control) and soldering a capacitor across those two switch terminals.
The capacitor value can be chosen for the required effect. Something like a 1200pf capacitor would give a subtle removal of highs and make the bridge pickup sound more like an FS-1 pickup when the lower tone control is set to zero, when set at 10 the sound will be virtually unchanged. A larger capacitor value such as 0.022 would remove more highs and leave bass and lower mids when the lower tone control is backed off.
The best thing about the mod is that switch positions 1-4 remain exactly as stock.
Regards,
Charlie

[tca]

Thanks Charlie, I'll try that for the sake of a couple of quid or so. I'll let you know the outcome.

Rgds - Clive

[Simon Underwood]

Hi Charlie,

That's interesting- I've always just put a link wire on the switch so that the mid tone control operates as normal on the bridge pickup, and wound the control back to about 7 or 8. What's the difference between doing it this way and using a capacitor?

Regards,

Simon

[Charlie Hall]

Hi Simon,
The capacitor is effectively in series with the original capacitor in switch position 5, which makes it possible to tailor the tone control response for the bridge pickup alone without affecting positions 1-4. I use the vintage value 0.1uf for the main tone control capacitor and 0.022uf for the additional capacitor, which gives approximately 0.018uf for the bridge position, a good value for woman tone effects when backing off the tone control. Also the smaller the additional cap, the less effect the tone control has when set on 10 thus keeping the guitar sounding close to stock with the bridge pickup when the tone control is on 10.
I think additional cap values of between 1000pf and 0.022uf are worth experimenting with.
Regards,
Charlie

[Deleted]

HI SIMON charlie is right in what he has said ,I have discovered this quite a while back & have added switches to do just that..0018 to ,or .0022 ,or,.0033 work great , if you go too far it interferes with the brightness of the bottomE, that is why I have those value's switchable, with cente off mini toggles & no tone pot ,but a further .0047 or higher for a more drastic tone cut,alternatively leave the tone control in circuit ,& use that to add the extra tone cut instead of the higher value cap's...
The values will alter depending on your pick-up spec's [experimentation,is the go],I use ''Fat-Fifties'' in my ''favorite'' project-squier & ''JC-VINTAGE'' in my US-strat,, both are great!!!!...

THE cap's bring out some mid's as well & take that ''thin-sound-away-from-the higher string's..
Many change-pick-up's to try to achieve this effect ,while only need to do the above simple mod's...

CHEERS ALL & KEEP WARM ...............''aussie-barry''..

[Simon Underwood]

Thanks, I can feel some experimentation coming on!

Simon

[clivea]

Hi Simon,

Yep, - I too can feel some experimentation coming on!

I'm waiting for a capacitor (1200pf) to be posted through my door, hopefully tomorrow.

Once I've fitted it, I'll report back with my findings. Should be interesting. Rgds - Clive

[clivea]

Hi Charlie, I've now fitted the 1200pf capacitor and have to report that I really can't tell any significant change in tone - only very very slightly (unless I'm kidding myself). I soldered it onto the spare switch terminal and the lower tone control switch terminal. Do you think I may need a different value capacitor? Rgds - Clive

[Charlie Hall]

Hi Clive,
With that capacitor value it is best to think of having two sounds available for the bridge pickup, one with the tone control on 10 for the original sound, the other new sound with the tone control at zero, which should make your bridge pickup sound more like an FS-1 (but without the volume boost of an FS-1).
The change is indeed too subtle to use the tone control at in between settings but it is useful to have when you want to remove the highs from high notes.
If after trying again you find it is of little use to you, try experimenting with larger capacitor values than 1200pf.
Regards,
Charlie

[andygp]

Speaking of capacitors, I have learned in another thread of the existence of a "rotary switch with a selection of different capacitors, embedded in epoxy resin" (see picture)



It seems to me that replacing the second tone control (wired to the bridge pickup) with one of these little devices could be a more versatile solution than soldering/desoldering different capacitors until you find the one that sounds best to your ears. I have also found a link to a website that sells them, but unfortunately is written in german (link here:
www.gitarrenelektronik.de/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&page=shop.browse&category_id=6&Itemid=26)
What do you think of this device? (Of course I would be especially interested in Charlie's opinion).
Does anyone know if there is another place where you can buy this or a similar item?

Thanks
Andy

[Charlie Hall]

Hi Andy,
It could be a good solution for increasing tonal variety but I don't really like the idea of being limited to the capacitor values supplied.
Regards,
Charlie

[clivea]

Thanks Charlie, the tone appears to be the same set to 10 or zero. What larger capacitor value would you suggest? I note Barry's comments but don't quite understand the capacitor values he's quoting. Like Barry, I'm using JC's p/ups, but don't quite know where to go from here. Rgds - Clive

[Charlie Hall]

Hi Clive,
Try playing higher notes to see if you can then hear more of a difference with both settings.
Regards,
Charlie

[tca]

No mate - can't really hear a significant difference. Should I change the capacitor? Rgds - Clive

[Charlie Hall]

Hi Clive,
Did you receive only one capacitor? If you received more than one of the same value, you could try adding another in parallel to double the amount of capacitance.
In the meantime, perhaps you could post or email me a short mp3 test recording of the same solo passage (with no backing track) played twice with the bridge pickup, including some high notes, one with the tone control at 10 and the other with the tone control at zero, then I can put them into Sonar to see if there is really a difference. From your description it sounds like you have wired it correctly so I'm not sure why you aren't hearing the difference.
Regards,
Charlie

[Deleted]

HI CLIVE ,,,,,where exactly are you fitting the cap?..
I t needs to go from the active lead of the pickup to ground !!!!! whether it be at the p/up itself or from the 5 way switch it does not seem to matter much ,,I actully add my cap's from the total signal prior to the vol-pot but I have mine swichable!! so as you can have it or [them] in my case I use 4x differing values ie 2x centre-off -mini toggle's ,that you can have the tone-cut or not have-it!!!!!! you can leave the std-tone pot&cap in circuit as well but leave it at full treble & use the switching for the effect[I do not have the tone pot in circuit but have done & that's ok as well but the tone pot& cap does make a slight difference!!!no big-deal ,but it does alter slightly what cap value you use [the additional cap we are fitting Imean!!!
CLIVE I have found the best values are between .0018 uf & .0047 uf ''green-caps'' in nano-farad that is 1.8nf-4.7nf..
SO in pico-farads that's
1,800 pf
3,300pf
3,900pf
4,700pf..[pico-farads]
OR
1.8nf
2.2nf
3.3nf
3.9nf
4.7nf...[nano-farads']
OR theEIA-CODE.
182
222
332
392
472 [eia-code]
mostly these day's the caps are marked in the nano-farrad ,ie[nf]& or just N sometimes..
ANY way clive they are cheap to buy so get a range from 102-472 ..or higher ,a few of each will only cost very little & have a play-around with differing values ,,... If you don't want to add switches [spoiling the original appearance remove the tone-pot or 1 of them & fit a 4-or-more up to 12 position rotary switch 6 pos would be plenty & fit a couple larger-caps at 5&6 pos,say a 103nf [.01uf] & a 223 [.022uf] for a more mellow setting ,you can get a splined shaft rotary to accept your fender knob [quite cheaply 3-4 oz dollars ] the caps should only be about 25cents ea here in OZ,,,, Greencaps are fine all this orange drop etc etc is only ''HYPE'' most all guitars etc use''green-caps'' ie polyester or mylar & they do the job & are very cheap I have hundreds of these here as well as many other types the 100volt-rating-type-green-caps are the ''GO-MATE''..
BEST OF LUCK & DO PERSIVERE with it you will get the sound you ''WANT'' to hear!!!
CHEERS .........barry..

[Charlie Hall]

Hi Barry,
My suggestion for wiring the cap into the tone pot circuit across the switch was to get the original sound and the modified sound without having to install extra switches.
I did test this a few years ago on someone's guitar and it was very effective. I am not sure at the moment why Clive is not finding a similar result.
Regards,
Charlie

[erikMAMS]

Hi Clive
I wonder if there's a problem with your wiring?. Although subtle you should be able to hears some effect on higher notes. Be sure to have your ears tuned in for finer nuances - in order to "spot" the effect, so to speak. Sometimes if you expect a more pronounced effect it possible to overlook the more subtle changes, especially at bedroom sound levels. If this is the case try also to do some listening at more realistic sound levels.

Can you make a test sound file for comparing?

If you want to up the capacitor value for more effect get a few caps in increasing values:
1500 - 1800 - 2200 - 3300 - 4700 picofarads are standard values.

Alternatively you can increase the 1200 pf by soldering another cap in parallel (capacitors in parallel sums up the value). By adding another 1200 pf cap you would get 1200//1200 = 2400 pf.

The cap values Barry's quoting are 0.0018 - 0.0022 - 0.0033 - 0.0047 microfarads.
(0.0018 microfarads = 1.8 nanofarads = 1800 picofarads).

Keep us posted with your results as you go along.

Erik

EDIT. My post crossed the replies from Charlie and Barry.

[clivea]

Yes Charlie, I received only one capacitor but will get another and try adding in parallel.
Will send you an mp3 test this pm - if I can figure out how to do it! Rgds - Clive

[Deleted]

HI ERIC ,CHARLIE & ALL charlie clive may not be putting the cap in the cicuit correctly as you want him to do ,maybe a clearer explanation needed &or a simple diagram on site would be the go??
Eric maybe you could draw a diagram?? & or charlie? on the computer otherwise I could draw by-hand & scan-only!!!
CLIVE do buy a selection of caps & make sure you are fitting it in the correct posission as I feel maybe you have not??
cheers all barry.. ps my spelling is getting ''worse'' sorry..

[tca]

I'll go to Maplins this pm when I get a minute and buy another 1200pf, then I'll fit it tonight and see what happens, I'll soon be able to take my guitar to pieces blindfolded!
Charlie, I've recorded a sample on my Boss-600, but I'm having probs downloading it to laptop via usb cable to produce an mp3 for you. Nothing appears to happen when I connect the two, I'm not even getting the usual 'connected' sound. I'm worried that someone has sold me a 'duff' piece of equipment. I've also stuck a thread on proboard to see if anyone can help. Rgds - Clive

[Charlie Hall]

Hi Clive,
With some computers, including those running XP, there are a limited number of ports (nothing to do with the number of USB sockets) available for USB connection. I believe this number to be around 10 as far as I can remember. I think Vista and later can accomodate a greater number. I think for this reason it is always advisable to use the same USB socket for a particular device.
I suggest trying a different USB socket, particularly the one you first used for this device that worked if you can remember which, if you might have been using just any USB socket this time.
Those who know more about this than I do can add helpful comments if they want.
Regards,
Charlie

[Charlie Hall]

Hi Clive,
I received your test file and put it into Sonar, splitting the two parts into separate tracks.
The first part is definitely warmer than the second. Frequencies between 3KHZ and 5KHz are down on the second part and there seems to be a slight lift at around 2.5KHz.
I agree that the difference is hard to discern by ear but it is there, although having the tone control at zero isn't making your pickup sound like an FS-1.
I think adding another capacitor will be more useful for you.
Regards,
Charlie

[clivea]

Thanks Charlie - I've just got a2200pf. I'm now starting to take guitar to bits, again, and fit it - I'll let you know the outcome. Rgds - Clive

[clivea]

I fitted the 2200pf and found that again there was hardly any difference in bridge p/up tone. I then took a deep breath and added the 1200pf to the 2200pf giving a total 3400pf. The tonal change from '10' to zero was much more noticeable.

Charlie, I'll send you another mp3 sample for your comment, when I get a minute, if you don't mind. I'd like your opinion of the tone.

Thyanks everyone for your help and comments. Rgds - Clive