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Post by sheendigs on Nov 23, 2009 21:01:53 GMT
Hi Alan Betowelch has surely being using his AC15 on most of his tunes... He should be able to help Sheendigs
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Post by asimmd on Nov 23, 2009 21:15:18 GMT
I've tried to access them but the site say's they are not available.
Alan
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Post by betowelch on Nov 23, 2009 22:27:11 GMT
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Post by Tone on Nov 23, 2009 23:58:51 GMT
Hi Roberto
Thanks for posting the samples - you've put a lot of work into them. A very interesting exercise which clearly demonstrates the different sounds from different picks and, to a lesser extent, reducing the guitar volume.
They all sound good but, for the purpose of comparison to the original record (which, admittedly, I haven't listened to for a while), I think your jazz pick gives a sound which is too "thick" and lacking in attack and "bite." To my ears Test 2 is the closest to the original and is very good indeed.
Of course, we all hear things differently so others may not agree!
Cheers.
Tony
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Post by zager on Nov 24, 2009 0:19:17 GMT
Hi everyone, I’m not able to give any advice on this, but I’ve been following the thread with great interest and it is very enlightening. It took me back to 1969 when I was heavily into hi fi separates. I’ve had, and still do have, a vast collection of LPs. I wanted the best separates on the market to play them with. I read all the hifi mags looking for advice as to which was the best buy. I had the best tube amp available along with the best turntable, best stylus, best tape recorder, best tuner, best speakers available. I spent a small fortune on hifi separates. I was happy for a while, then it would start all over again, it nearly took over my life. All I seemed to be doing was listening to what sounds were coming from my hi fi - were the speakers in the right position, were they at the right height? Were they at the right angle, was I sitting in the right position to hear the best sound? The list goes on an on. Then one day someone in work said to me do you ever take time to listen to the music and enjoy your records? It was only then that the penny dropped. He was right, I wasn’t listening to my records, I was listening to the sound to see if I could make it better, and missing out all the enjoyment of playing my records. We spend a lot of time and money on guitars and equipment looking and searching for the ‘Shadows sound’. I’ve done it myself and before we realise it a lot of money, and especially time, has passed us by. I sincerely hope that some of my fellow members get close to the sound they are looking for. I myself know I have a long way to go in achieving that, But you also have to - as the saying goes - take time to smell the flowers. I love playing the guitar and always will. I’m not happy with the sound I’m getting now but maybe one day I’ll get a bit closer to the Shadows sound. I just hope I never forget to enjoy the music. regards tony
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Post by Charlie Hall on Nov 24, 2009 0:33:10 GMT
Hi Alan, Roberto has recently posted his version of Find Me A Golden Street using the AC15 Heritage in Sound Files. Regards, Charlie
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Post by Charlie Hall on Nov 24, 2009 0:52:47 GMT
I have just listened to the 6 files and think that 6 comes closest to the original, although I don't necessarily think it is the secret answer. It has the softer sound and retains some bite from the use of the heavier pick but I also feel that some of the mid range bark has been lost. I agree that the Jazz 3 sounds dull. It also sounds more inconsistent with the tone produced according to the way the note is picked. Regards, Charlie
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2009 8:22:01 GMT
Hi again, Roberto,
You have been busy, haven't you? My vote goes with Nos 1 or 2 -tracks which have more 'bite' than the remainder. Samples 5 and 6 are quite acceptable, but I would forget about 3 and 4 - they are nowhere near.
In my view there are two elements to the sound - one is the actual tone, the other is what I call bite or 'grunt' - the latter, I believe is achieved with a lighter pick or by hitting the strings much harder with a heavier pick (which is probably what Hank did in those early days). Getting the right balance between the two goes a long way to achieving the right sound - particularly on the lower strings.
One other point that I really thought I should mention is that your test files give no sample of the other sections of the track which are equally important. The correct sound relates to the notes in the upper octaves as well as the lower ones, and while you might achieve something which sounds right in this early part of the piece, it might sound totally wrong when you come to do, say, the double-stopped section at between the 5th and 12ft frets later on.
But returning to the choice of samples, I would raise again the questionable value of asking for other people's assessments of your interpretation of 'That Sound'. At the end of the day it's YOUR sound that's important. If YOU are happy with it, and you feel it is right, then that's what matters. Everyone hears things differently and on different sound systems, and we all interpret things in a different way.
As you can see from the responses here, two of us voted for tracks 1 or 2 yet another voted for track 6. So where does that leave you ? You submitted tracks 3 and 4 as possible contenders, but no-one else thought that they were correct - so does that mean that our hearing is very different from yours ?
Assessing likenesses in sound is very subjective; we all listen out for different elements in a sound and interpret it based on our own ideas of what is right and wrong. To achieve a precise and perfect 'match' with a recording made nearly 50 years ago with very different equipment from we are using now is virtually impossible; what we should aim to achieve is our own best interpretation of it. What you have in tracks 1,2,5 and 6 is quite acceptable and if you want to progress it further then I would work by what your own ears tell you. At the end of the day it's going to be YOUR sound, so you should be the final judge of what is acceptable.
Tony, above, also makes an excellent point. Once you have a good sound - stay with it. We spend hours and hours trying to get that last note perfect, but we almost forget why we are doing it. Make sure you take time to enjoy the music too. That's what it's really all about, isn't it ?
Cheers,
Ian
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Post by asimmd on Nov 24, 2009 9:18:19 GMT
Hi Roberto A lot of work my friend and some interesting results.
My favourite is no3,but there are a couple of notes in the intro on take no 4 where the sound seems perfect,but then it immediately goes back to being mello.
Perhaps if you were a bit more positive hitting the strings and not gentle,the sound would be even better,however the sound is definately there,just needs a bit of fine tuning.
Well done,I look forward to your next post,you are definately making me think about getting one.
Alan
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Post by betowelch on Nov 24, 2009 10:07:25 GMT
Hi All:
First at all, when I posted that 6 samples yesterday my main objective was bring back the tone question of "Golden Street" to the center of discussion and give a practical samples from different picks and guitar volume, since these 2 questions was opened by Ian.
Personally I always use the same pick, a hard model (without name...?) 0.8 mm that gives me a nice bit. Also I always use the volume 10 on my guitar.
The main question it's how to get the closest tone in this tune that IMHO it's a great challenge.... Charlie give us a good way to find it and Ian gives another complementary details that I wanted to check and this was the reason of that samples.
Sometimes ago Marcelo gift me a George Dennis red pick 3.0 mm (the same one that Hank uses). Apparently the sound it's very closer that got with Jazz 3...a lot dull. If Hank at the earlies use a pick like George Dennis 3.0 mm very probably he attacks the string more stronger to find a better sound than this dull one.... Alan said that in test 3 or 4 (that with 3.0 mm pick) some notes are perfect and this depends of how it's force against the strings..............
I think that "Golden Street" as one of the most nice early tunes from Shads will deserve a more attention of all us trying to find the tone solution and posting here each tests and contribution.
I just recently re-recorder this tune and I posted it here with the Charlie collaboration to find a closer tone. I'm sure that now I'm closer with the tone....... but not completely as I wanted. Maybe I was a perfeccionist.... So maybe we could to continue this discussion with more practical tests.....................
Cheers from Brazil! Roberto
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Post by asimmd on Nov 24, 2009 16:34:43 GMT
Hi Roberto
In your description of the amp settings in Sound Files,you say you used a tone impedance pedal set at 75% (C4 position).
Can you tell me what this is please.
Thanks
Alan
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Post by betowelch on Nov 24, 2009 21:56:38 GMT
Hi Roberto In your description of the amp settings in Sound Files,you say you used a tone impedance pedal set at 75% (C4 position). Can you tell me what this is please. Thanks Alan Hi Alan: This is a called "vintage cable pedal" to compensating cable impedances in today cables and works over the guitar tone. In Goran site you will find more technical informations and drawings. Mine is a "home made" but there is a similar fabricated model denominated ToneFreq. Mine was gave me by Marcelo and I know that he also has this ToneFreq. It's a good device for tone adjusting together with the Cut Control in the Vox amps. Cheers from Brazil! Roberto
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Post by asimmd on Nov 26, 2009 9:26:33 GMT
Thanks Roberto,I have found it.
Alan
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Post by betowelch on Nov 26, 2009 12:42:25 GMT
Hi All:
After more than 500 visits to this thread I want to thanks all that could add some their own experience and give us more details about this challenge question...."How to emulate the tone of Find Me a Golden Street".....
But for me this isn't a question closed. Through the always great technical Charlie's explanations and teachings I think that "the tone is there" (as he saids....) but imho, there are something more to be added. I really don't know what could be. Yesterday night, listen more carefully in a A/B test between one of my samples and the Hank original, for a moment, I thought that Hank could to used a little of vibrato effect.... This could be true?
Cheers from Brazil! Roberto
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Post by asimmd on Nov 26, 2009 15:42:11 GMT
Hi Roberto
As I said when you did your 6 tests,at least one of the sounds was very close to the original,at least the original that's in my head.
Could it be the echo you are using,or the position you play at,or the strings used for certain notes,there are so many possibilities.
I know it's no consolation but I went to a music shop on Tuesday and took my own guitar with me,I played through a Heritage 15 watt for at least 45 minutes and whilst I was happy that the sound was the classic Vox/Fender Strat,I could not make a sound like Hank.
I must say that I didn't have an echo of any sort,just played through the amp,but no sound like you get on your demo's.
Alan
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Post by betowelch on Nov 26, 2009 19:29:40 GMT
Hi Alan:
Thanks for your new reply. You're a very active in this thread. The Vox Heritage has a very good sound, as per Shadows earlies tunes also for more recent ones. I'm very happy with it. It's possible that many others members could don't understood my questions about all these tone problem in this tune. In fact isn't an echo problem. It's a tone problem. And this tone deviation (or tone's offset) imho it's more pronounced in Golden Street since (also imho) this tune it has a different tone from another earlies Shadows tunes. And unfortunately there isn't any live DVD recording of Hank playing this tune so we could check what tone type could Hank to use on it at present days.....
With the excellent Charlie's echoes patches he give us the possibility of emulate the Hank sound with just using small (and not expensive) echo audio processors and it's very possible to get a very similar sound (echo and tone) for almost of the Shadow's tunes... But there are some special cases (as Blue Star, Sleepwalk and Golden Street) that could be still needing something more. I saw from Charlie comments that in Sleepwalk could be something like a special Meazzi with lower echo velocity. And very probably Golden street could be need a special more effort to find what could be its tone secret..... Yesterday I thought that could be have just a little of vibrato effect also....but as I don't have a vibrato pedal I couldn't check this....
Cheers from Brazil! Roberto
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Post by Charlie Hall on Nov 26, 2009 22:16:00 GMT
Hi Roberto, It isn't a vibrato effect. The main missing link in your case is the use of the tremolo arm. Once you have yours correctly set up and you study the tune carefully to see how Hank is using it, I am sure you will have a much closer sound to the original. For example, listen to the very first note, Hank is pressing down on the arm to begin with and then releases it after picking the note to produce the effect of an up bend. Regards, Charlie
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Post by Tone on Nov 27, 2009 20:29:45 GMT
Hi Charlie and Roberto
In my post #33 in response to Roberto's six sound samples I made my comments without listening to the original recording. I have now rectified this and I think I know exactly what Roberto means - there is something there in the tone that it's difficult to identify.
Charlie, I agree that Hank uses the trem a lot in this piece but, apart from the obvious dips, it's generally a rapid "wavering" of the arm heard throughout the recording. But....I think there's amysterious and hard to define something else which is a factor in the overall sound and I think it's present on quite a few of the early tracks.
I'm wondering if it could be something to do with the wow and flutter on the Meazzi?
Cheers.
Tony
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Post by Charlie Hall on Nov 27, 2009 20:55:39 GMT
Hi Tony, I have just listened to the original and find that tone is very warm and the echo voicing is still very different to that of the guitar, but that is typical of all the Echomatic 2 recordings. I think there is some distortion and compression of of the echo. The next track is Theme From A Filleted Plaice and the difference in the tones is very noticable. You must try this too, it is not something I really took much notice of before. I think that difference is possibly because Golden Street was recorded with a rosewood board Strat and Filleted Plaice was recorded with the original maple board Strat. There is a very low amount of echo but plenty of studio reverb on Filleted Plaice and after listening very carefully at the end of the first chorus I can hear that it sounds like the first Echomatic at low level, but is mainly masked by studio reverb. Therefore it is lacking the distortion and compression that is characteristic of the Echomatic 2. Summing up the difference between the two, I think it is the warm sound of the guitar on Golden Street, the Echomatic 2 distorting and compressing (which never seemed as apparent with the first Echomatic), and the use of the tremolo arm. I think any wow and flutter present (there would have been some) is mainly masked by the use of the tremolo arm, which is the major missing ingredient in Roberto's recording. Once that is in place, if he posts another version, we can then try to decide if anything else is missing. Regards, Charlie
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Post by betowelch on Nov 28, 2009 0:09:28 GMT
Hi Charlie and Tony:
Sorry for this my late answer. I was in a work's travel. Just to tell that I think that this discussion could be very helpful for all members that someday could be want to emulate the Golden Street tone. Tony: Thanks for your understanding of my feelings about some real mysterious tone difference. Charlie: Certainly as I don't have such great sound experience like you, for an instance, I thought that this difference could be some a little of vibrato (I'm not referring me to tremolo effect gived by using of tremolo arm...but that old traditional vibrato effect...just a little bit.....). But, as you now explain us this difference could be some of distortion plus compression of the echo. This weekend I will post another example of this recording but with my old guitar that it has a more soft tremolo arm.
Cheers from Brazil! Roberto
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Post by asimmd on Nov 28, 2009 10:05:53 GMT
I think Charlies points are, as usual, very close to the problem.
I have always thought that there was a degree of distortion on these early Hank tones,which I originally thought was down to overdriving the echo/amp.
The easiest way to emulate this,and not to damage any equipment would be to use an overdrive/distortion pedal, set so it is only just breaking up.
I am pleased to say that I have ordered a Heritage 15 watt,and hopefully it should arrive in the next 10 day's.
I look forward to your new recording with the alternative strat Roberto.
Alan
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Post by Tone on Nov 28, 2009 11:39:05 GMT
Hi Charlie
Many thanks for your most informative and interesting comments. As Alan says, I think you've put your finger on the 'X Factor' i.e it's the distortion and compression of the echo. Is this something that was inherent in the Echomatic 2 or could it have been controlled in the studio? I can understand how distortion could have occurred but what would have caused the compression? Whatever it was, the boys, engineer and producer were obviously happy with the sound as were the fans and those of us who are trying to achieve it nearly 50 years later! As you know, I'm not very technical so is there a way to emulate the compression and distortion on modern equipment without trying to find an original Echomatic 2? I can easily get my ESE Echomatic to distort but it's not at all like the distortion we're discussing and, in fact, is quite unpleasant.
As regards the difference in sound between 'Golden Street' and 'Filleted Plaice, funnily enough I've started to learn the latter only in the last couple of weeks and, having listened to the original many times, there is, as you say, a noticeable difference in tone. I'm really not sure if the difference between the rosewood and maple neck Strats is a factor. I say this because I believe 'Golden Street' was recorded in Jan 61 and 'Filleted Plaice' in June 61. I know there is uncertainty over when Hank changed from the maple to rosewood and there may have been a period when he was using both but surely those dates would indicate that either both tracks were recorded with the maple neck or 'Golden Street' with the maple neck and 'Filleted Plaice' with the rosewood and not the other way round as suggested by you? However, you may have information which others don't!
Roberto, I, too, look forward to your latest recording.
Cheers.
Tony
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Post by Charlie Hall on Nov 28, 2009 12:10:34 GMT
Hi Tony, When a signal is overloaded on tape it compresses and tends to soft clip, much like a Vox or similar amp does when working hard. TVS has this feature in its designs. It would be possible to simulate it with a soft clipping circuit and careful control of frequencies. There are VST plugins available to simulate it in recording software. I have been experimenting with a frequency dependent soft clipping compressor design, but not for this purpose, it is part of my research into Chet Atkins' recorded sound. I have studied the frequency response of some of his recordings and found that they closely follow the ideal frequency curve for recordings, and that the signals are very finely controlled, so my design is intended to reproduce that for recording, but I don't know how successful it will be, especially for live playing with a normal guitar amp. I haven't had time to actually build one yet. If it works well, it could be a revelation for guitar players who want to sound like Chet. Once I have done that, I might be able to adapt it to act as a suitable tone modifier for an echo signal. The studio would have had no control over the distortion other than to be careful how much the high end frequencies were boosted at the console, which would make the distortion sound worse, so maybe that is a possible difference. I didn't know the recording dates, if yours are correct it would certainly mean there must be some other factor to take into consideration. Regards, Charlie
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Post by erikMAMS on Nov 28, 2009 13:27:28 GMT
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Post by betowelch on Nov 28, 2009 17:34:22 GMT
Hi Charlie / Tony and Alan: Here's a new test with only the first middle part of the tune. In this test I used my old guitar (that's has a softer tremolo arm) and also I add more 2 another changes. In my Boss CS-2 (Compression-Sustainer Pedal) I increased about 20% the sustain knob and in Yamaha MS (with U13 patch) I increased the feedback (3rd knob) to 4.2 value. All other settings was the same as in my recent recording posting here. www.4shared.com/file/161506966/66c84133/Find__Roberto__-New_Test_27-11.htmlPlease let me know if these changes could be better or not..... Cheers from Brazil! Roberto
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Post by Charlie Hall on Nov 28, 2009 19:51:28 GMT
Hi Roberto, It does sound better, however I think the tremolo arm use could be further improved. The sustain might be a good idea if it is more suitable for the guitar that you used. I'm not sure about increasing the echo feedback, it shouldn't really have been necessary, although I don't hear any unwanted effect from doing that with this recording. Regards, Charlie
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Post by betowelch on Nov 28, 2009 22:12:21 GMT
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Post by Charlie Hall on Nov 28, 2009 22:28:33 GMT
Hi Roberto, It sounds like you have added reverb and made it more distant sounding. If so, in my opinion it is less accurate to the original. Regards, Charlie
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Post by betowelch on Nov 28, 2009 22:43:34 GMT
Hi Charlie:
No I didn't add any reverb. I just added the Ampworks effect adjusting with very little effect depth and with the Treble /Middle and Bass knobs in the Ampworks trying to get closer to the original tone. According what I heard.....imho....I think that it's a more closer tone.
Cheers from Brazil! Roberto
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Post by Charlie Hall on Nov 29, 2009 0:36:23 GMT
Hi Roberto, OK, the tone is probably closer, but you mention first of all the Ampworks effect with little effect depth, do you know what this effect actually is? Regards, Charlie
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