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Post by fenderplucker on Mar 23, 2010 1:43:25 GMT
The really sad thing is I bet that the "Golden Ear" hi-fi brigade swear that they can hear the difference!!! I wonder if it matters whether the power is from coal fired or nuclear power plants? Paul.
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TVS 1
Jan 4, 2010 13:04:16 GMT
Post by fenderplucker on Jan 4, 2010 13:04:16 GMT
Hello Ian,
I have not heard of anyone having problems with a TVS1 up 'till now. If you could e-mail me ( paul.rossiterATozemail.com.au and replace the 'AT' with @ ) and describe the symptoms in more detail I will help get the problem solved.
Best Rgards,
Paul.
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Post by fenderplucker on Nov 19, 2009 11:53:01 GMT
Hi, Thankyou for all the very helpful feedback on the articles on the TVS website (www.tvsspecialtyproducts.com) regarding the amplifiers and echoes used by The Shadows. I have now updated both of those articles to incorporate most of that information along with new data on some of the more obscure echo units, as well as revising the echo timings for the Roland units (which I have just re-measured) and including some more photographs. Any further feedback would be most welcome. Regards, Paul.
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Post by fenderplucker on Nov 19, 2009 4:00:42 GMT
Hello Alan,
That is a great piece of evidence and for me, at least, finally settles the discussion on what amp was used to record Apache. Surely it would now be quite fanciful to suggest that it was recorded using anything other than the two tone AC15.
I'll include it on the Shadows Amplifiers article on the TVS site when it is updated shortly.
Best Regards,
paul.
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Post by fenderplucker on Nov 17, 2009 13:02:16 GMT
Hi wattybluesman, Hank probably used the Vox that can be seen behind him if you view the full video of the Princess Anne concert: www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=42067(check out the stills too, they are very clear). The Watkins amp that was also on stage probably belonged to another band playing on the day. Paul.
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Post by fenderplucker on Nov 14, 2009 1:23:14 GMT
Hi Charlie,
Let's hope that Alan does so, it would be very interesting to hear more about the drum Meazzi's.
Best Regards,
paul.
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Post by fenderplucker on Nov 11, 2009 8:29:41 GMT
Hi again, Operator (and sometimes service) manuals for many products, including Roland RE-3, are available at no charge from: safemanuals.com/Regards, paul.
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Post by fenderplucker on Nov 10, 2009 15:00:11 GMT
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Post by fenderplucker on Nov 10, 2009 14:40:34 GMT
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Post by fenderplucker on Nov 10, 2009 14:35:06 GMT
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Post by fenderplucker on Nov 10, 2009 10:41:13 GMT
Hi,
I think that we can rule out the RE-3 being used on The Snowman. It has only a single variable delay (10 - 320 mSec) and as Alan McKillop commented on Shadowmusic:
Having been an owner of the Roland RE-3 digital unit, I doubt very much if this was ever used, certainly not for recording as it gives very precise even echo repeats which don't feature in the Snowman, but it did have fabulous reverbs.
Also, it seems to have been introduced in 1988 whereas the Snowman/Walking in the Air was recorded in 1987.
That leaves us with a Roland as the most likely candidate (unless there was some other unknown unit being used), though I couldn't get a perfect fit to the Re-301 timings so I am wondering about a 555/501? I'm checking that now.
Best Regards,
paul.
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Post by fenderplucker on Nov 10, 2009 5:38:12 GMT
Hi Charlie,
The reviews of the RE-3 on Harmony Central suggest that Roland missed the mark. The owners didn't seem to have much regard for echoes, though apparently the reverb works very well. Again there is only mention of a single delay but I'm still searching for more info.
Best Regards,
Paul.
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Post by fenderplucker on Nov 10, 2009 2:23:14 GMT
Hi again Charlie,
Thanks for that info on the EC3, I'll include it when we update the article on the TVS site in the near future.
I have been trying to get more info on the MXR digital delay and Roland RE-3 and, as far as I can ascertain, they both had only one delay (variable delay time up to about 310 - 320 mSec in standard form, variable echo level, feedback and modulation) and so could probably not be used on tracks with more complicated echo patterns. The circuit diagram for the MXR was fascinating: absolutely full of digital chips and all that is now available (and much more) on a single complex chip!
Best Regards,
Paul.
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Post by fenderplucker on Nov 10, 2009 2:04:06 GMT
Hi Erik,
I guess we must all be "Shadows tragics" to some degree to be concerned with such apparently minute detail. But as you say, it is the thrill of finding out that keeps the drive there and it would be nice to have a record of what actually happened.
And I am sure that neither Charlie or I take any offence at you posting your comments; it is only through such discussion among respected friends that we slowly move forward. The question of the 180/280 echo is intriguing since whatever is there, it is usually quite small in level and so difficult to pin down (and could more than one machine have possibly been used?).
Best Regards,
Paul.
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Post by fenderplucker on Nov 10, 2009 1:48:09 GMT
Hi Charlie,
Crikey, that info from Alan introduces even more uncertainties! I guess all we can do is continue to go by what we have measured until something more definitive (if it exists) ever turns up. Did you get the impression that Alan might one day finish off the series on Meazzis that he started off some time ago in Shadsfax?
Just as well that we are trying to get this all together now as one could imagine that in a few more years such knowledge might be lost forever.
I finally tracked down a photo of Hank using an EC3. It was in my concert brochure for the 1979 UK tour. Not very good quality but at least confirmation of its use in public.
Best Regards,
Paul.
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Post by fenderplucker on Nov 9, 2009 23:48:22 GMT
Hi Charlie,
I agree that we certainly shouldn't let this discussion degenerate into a "who's right and who's wrong" situation since we all gain enormously from each other's findings, and I guess we should remain open to other possibilities. One of those is that, if there were a head at about 180 mSec, then it was just turned off on the Blue Star and FBI tracks I showed. Pity we don't have any other data to show where it was clearly revealed since it doesn't seem to be a common occurrence (or Hank's machine to have a look at!).
I think you are right about the fortuitous nature of Hank getting his sound, a happy combination of talent, Strat, Meazzi, amp and recording environment. It certainly worked!
Regards,
Paul.
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Post by fenderplucker on Nov 9, 2009 13:38:20 GMT
[/img]Hah, now I'm getting the hang of it!! Here is (or should be) the image from FBI. Regards, Paul. Attachments:
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Post by fenderplucker on Nov 9, 2009 13:36:45 GMT
[/img]Hi again, This going to take a while! The last image was from Quatermassters Stores (I tried to post three at once which obviously doesn't work). I hope this one is from Blue Star. Regards, paul. Attachments:
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Post by fenderplucker on Nov 9, 2009 13:34:05 GMT
[img src="[/img] "] [/img] Hi again, Looks like I failed to get the image attached, I'll try again!! Regards, paul. Attachments:
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Post by fenderplucker on Nov 9, 2009 13:29:35 GMT
[/img]Hi Charlie, Sorry but I disagree and let me show why. The first diagram (if I have managed to attach them correctly to this and the next two messages!) is the echo from a string squeek in Blue Star. This gives a nice sharp signal to analyse and as the diagram shows there are echoes very distinctly at approcimately 125, 433 and 603 mSec. From your comments there should be one at 179 mSec that is larger than the one at 125. This is clearly not the case and there is no sharp signal at that delay. The second diagram is from FBI which shows echoes at 122, 280, 360, 428 and 604 mSec. I have indicated where one at 180 mSec should occur and again there is nothing. The final diagram is from Quatermassters Stores. In this case the damped chord note is about 180 mSec long and so one has to include the effects of oberlapping notes and echoes. As you can see from the diagramthe echoes occur at 121, 433 and 600 mSec with probably no feedback (exactly the same as Apache). Where the first echo overlaps with the note there is some constructive interference. So I don't believe there is any need to invoke speed changes at all. Also, I repeat my point that I don't think that a head could be mounted just 54 mSec away from the previous head on a Meazzi drum unit because of the way the heads are mounted on swinging arms. Regards, Paul.
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Post by fenderplucker on Nov 9, 2009 3:15:27 GMT
Hello Charlie, Erik and others,
Thanks for your comments on the article, I had hoped that this one and the one on amplifiers would lead to the discovery of further information about the gear used by The Shadows.
I determined the head timings by analysing all the tunes that used each particular machine (both on record and the videos of the Cliff Richard Shows etc) and then averaging them since there was usually a percent or two variation either due to measurement errors or the machines running at slightly different speeds due to varying drag on the drum etc. In all cases the overall pattern was quite consistent. This was not the case with the head amplitudes that varied considerably from tune to tune. The TVS3 patches use the actual data measured.
Now to the particular points raised. In relation to the 6 head model J, if you have a look at the photo of the drum ahd heads, I think you will be able to see from the head spacings that the delay to the first head is the longest, it decreases a little to head 2, then it seems to decrease again to heads 3 and 4 (but roughly equal) and then again the heads 5 and 6. This is entirely consistent with the pattern that I have measured with delays between the heads of 121, 117, 93, 93, 83, 85 mSec, but it is not at all consistent with the delays between the heads from the Echotapper data (120, 80, 80, 80, 80, 80 mSec).
In relation to the 5- head model F, Charlie's suggestion of an echo at 179 mSec I have two comments. Firstly, that would require the replay heads 1 and 2 to be only 54 mSec apart. This would simply not be possible due to the design of the heads being mounted on swinging arms as shown in the photo of the 6 head machine (and presumably the same for the model F). Secondly, I have looked long and hard for such an echo and sometimes found some sort of signal there, but it never had the higher frequency components that are characteristic of an echo signal. The only echo I found consistently was at 280 mSec.
Finally, with regard to the Model F echo at 340 or 360 mSec, I was in some doubt for a while until I analysed the rendition of FBI on the Cliff Richard Show of 2nd March 1961, where Hank plays a dud note and the echo is clearly at 360 mSec.
Hope this helps,
Paul.
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Post by fenderplucker on Oct 11, 2009 13:03:17 GMT
Hi Jim, Charlie and others,
Jim, I think that bias (or maybe we should call it "preference") is always going to exist since people have different preferences and expectations (and possibly even hearing). Some may go to a concert expecting to hear Apache as it is heard on the original recordings and, even though this is never going to happen, they then describe the sound as somehow deficient. Others understand that a more valid reference to the old sound in a live performance context is probably the BBC Kingston live recording and judge it accordingly. Also, we have heard several comments that, despite the apperently good sound system, the sound is quite different at different locations in the various venues (including the echo levels!). It will certainly be interesting to compare the DVD with the Kingston recording and see how it stands up. Then there is the point made by Charlie that perhaps Hank is now striving for an even better sound!
I thus do not take any expression of preference as any poor reflection of this or any other site, if that is what you were suggesting. Indeed, I think that the tone of this site is set by Charlie's comments that, in my view, are always made with integrity and that I have very high regard for.
For me it is always interesting to hear what different people think and see what we can learn from it. That most people are getting great enjoyment from the concerts is a terrific outcome and I can hardly wait until Feb next year before I get a shot at it!
Best Regards,
Paul.
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Post by fenderplucker on Aug 19, 2009 18:32:17 GMT
Hi,
I'm fairly sure that the orginal was done with the middle pickup and picked up towards the neck. That can give the lovely tones heard on the original, assuming reasonable vintage sounding pickups.
I suspect that Hank's subsequent use of the bridge might be related to the Kinman pickups he has had of late.
Regards,
Paul.
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Post by fenderplucker on Jul 2, 2009 8:18:34 GMT
Hi Kevin,
As mentioned above by Charlie, the backings for the three songs performed at the last RVP were pre-recorded in the studio. Hank used a 70's AC30 and TVS3 to record his parts in Perth.
Regards,
Paul.
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Post by fenderplucker on Jun 28, 2009 14:46:41 GMT
Happy Birthday Barry, and congratulations on your 70th. Sounds like you celebrated in a style appropriate to the occasion!!!
Best Regards,
Paul.
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Post by fenderplucker on Jun 26, 2009 11:46:48 GMT
Hi,
I seem to recall from an earlier site that he uses a Rocktron preamp, 2 q20's (one for echo, the second for equalisation) and a Line 6 rack mount Pod. After that I'm not sure but the video shows a Vox amp.
Paul.
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Post by fenderplucker on Jun 26, 2009 3:19:52 GMT
Hi,
Len, there are indeed a large number of Shadows fans in Oz. I sold a 508 to one in Tassie a few years ago so I think we have all the states covered. Not sure about NT though??
John, Spiro organises the Perth Shadows club; I'll e-mail his contact details.
Charlie, I loved the sound of your Gretsch on the video posted on the Perth site a week ago, and well played too! One of my first memories of live rock music was a Melbourne band called The Thinderbirds and I was entranced at the sound of the wailing Gretsch that I could hear soaring above the band as I walked along the footpath to the Mailing Hall where thay played. I have wanted one ever since!
Regards,
Paul.
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Post by fenderplucker on Jun 25, 2009 13:04:50 GMT
Hi John44, I just saw the thread and am always interested to hear about other Aussie Shadows fans. There is a very active Shadows club over here in Perth with regular monthly get-togethers and other events throughout the year. If you should ever get the opportunity to come to Perth please let us know so that we can arrange something. We had the pleasure of a visit from Barry "Hoadlies" and his lovely wife a while ago (he commented above). Also, have you checked out the soundfiles on the TVS website www.tvsspecialtyproducts.com (go to the soundfiles and video page and click on the jukebox)? We are an Aussie enterprise trying to help those who want to get an authentic Shadows sound. Best Regards, Paul.
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Post by fenderplucker on Jun 24, 2009 4:54:35 GMT
Hi Barry,
have you tried "playing" the file on the 4-shared page, rather than "downloading" it to your computer?
Best Regards,
paul.
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Post by fenderplucker on Jun 23, 2009 15:04:50 GMT
Hi Charlie and Ian,
If I might reinforce Charlie's comments, his mod of the input circuit does indeed remove the matching problem. However, there are many non-EFTP Q2's and Q20's that people are using in the chain directly between the guitar and amp for which the original comment stands: the sound will be dull and lifeless. Another way around the problem is to use them in an effects loop, if your amp has one. The particular benefit of a TVS1 with a Q20 is exactly as Charlie says: it adds the valve preamp Meazzi sound that further enhances the excellent EFTP echoes.
You should still remove the capacitors in the Q2/20 if not already done by Charlie, since the TVS1 has a true bypass and you could then hear the effect of the TVS1 simply at a twist of the mode switch on the TVS1.
The benefits of a TVS2 or TVS3 are then mainly to do with the simulation of magnetic recording process for the echoes, which is done very differently in the Q2/20 and the TVS2/3, as well as a myriad of other things. Just how important they are, I think, depends entirely on the ear of the beholder and what cost-performance balance best suits their needs. For many a 508 will give enormous satisfaction and for them that is a great choice. For others nothing less than a drum Meazzi will do (if you could ever get one!). In between there are many other worthy choices like the Magicstomp, the various Alesis Quadraverbs and others such as Zoom, Roland tape, ESE and, dare I say it, TVS2 and TVS3. At the end of the day I think that the important thing is to get maximum pleasure and enjoyment from the music, and have the equipment that gets you there however modest or otherwise.
Regards,
Paul.
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